this is a great interview between new york school greats, kenneth koch, and john ashbery. the nature of their back and forth feels very personal, and so, a little hard to penetrate what, if anything, is genuine. another good example of how the way a poet talks about their work is more interesting than their "real answers".
as john ashbery says in the interview: "the worse your art is, the easier it is to talk about. or at least, i'd like to think so."